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| Tonal Properties of the Neck? http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=11317 |
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| Author: | Telfer [ Sun Mar 18, 2007 7:48 am ] |
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Just been reading some threads in the archives about various neck woods. Theres a lot of info on aesthetics, stability, strength and so on, but not a whole lot on the tonal properties of different woods. Does Walnut sound different than Mahogany...Bubinga different from Maple? And what about thickness? Do you believe that a thick neck actually sounds different than a thin neck. I suspect that its thickness at the nut has a significant influence on tone. A thin neck has what I call a 'twinky tone'. |
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| Author: | Jim Watts [ Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:15 am ] |
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Hi John and welcom to OLF, you've probably been welocmed and just behind as always, but welcome none the less. Different neck woods will have an impact on sound. I can't really speak to you guestion very well I almost always use mahogany and occasionally maple. But what I can tell you is that every wood responds differently to the energy of the strings. For me light weight and stability is what I'm after so mahogany fits the bill, with some carbon fiber of course! BTW most woods are not as stable as mahogany. |
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| Author: | Shawn [ Sun Mar 18, 2007 10:50 am ] |
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The wood used for the neck needs to be able to resonate and not dampen the sound that is created by the sound box. Besides the nature of some woods like ebony that dampen the sound, weight is also a factor. An interesting experiment to hear how the mass and weight of a guitar neck changes the tone is to attach a small weight of any kind temporarily to the end of the headstock and listen to the difference in the tone of the guitar. In general lighter as long as it is strong enough is better. I build classicals so string tension is not an issue but weight is so I use Spanish Cedar for necks instead of Mahogany as it is lighter and more stable although for steel string Mahogany is the standard as it is a stronger wood than Spanish Cedar. |
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| Author: | Telfer [ Sun Mar 18, 2007 10:56 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Shawn] The wood used for the neck needs to be able to resonate and not dampen the sound that is created by the sound box. [/QUOTE] Just that one line reminded me of pics Ive seen of some early Hauser Classicals. They were built like a violin with the fretboard floating over the soundboard, instead of being glued to it. |
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| Author: | Telfer [ Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:00 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Shawn] An interesting experiment to hear how the mass and weight of a guitar neck changes the tone is to attach a small weight of any kind temporarily to the end of the headstock and listen to the difference in the tone of the guitar. In general lighter as long as it is strong enough is better.[/QUOTE] A small weight...like the 'fat finger' used to increase sustain? Does this mean that if you want max sustain a heavy wood like Bubinga or Maple should be used? |
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| Author: | crowduck [ Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:22 am ] |
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Some players, namely Norman Blake, prefer a slotted headstock rather than a solid pegged headstock for tonal qualities. CrowDuck |
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| Author: | Alan Carruth [ Sun Mar 18, 2007 3:23 pm ] |
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Think about the guitar as if it was a xylophone bar. There are several ways the whole body+neck system can vibrate, and the lowest pitched 'mode', in particular, can effect the tone. It's easy to find this. Hold the guitar up, pinching the neck at the first fret between the thumb and first finger of one hand just lightly enough to damp the strings and keep it from falling. Allow it to hang freely. Tap on the back of the headstock right up at the top, and listen carefully with your ear as close to the headstock as you can get it without sticking a string end in your earlobe. You should hear a fairly clear, low pitched sound. What's happening is that the entire guitar is bending and vibrating. As the headstock and tail block are moving toward you, the heel is moving away. When the guitar is bending that way it is putting pressure along the length of the soundboard. Since most tops are made bellied out a little this pressure tends to push the top up, and sucks a little air in through the soundhole. When the guitar bends the other way, the air is pushed out. This is just what's happening with the 'main air' resonance; air is moving in and out of the soundhole at a particular pitch. It's just like the sound you hear when you blow across the top of a bottle. On a guitar, this air mode is often around the pitch of G on the low E string. You can hear it by singing the note into the soundhole, but keep your face at least 5 or 6 inches away from the hole, as having it too close can alter the pitch. Since the body and air vibrations are doing the same thing they can work together. In practice they will only do that if the natural pitches match very closely. Since the neck is bending a lot in this body vibration the flexibility of the neck will effect the pitch a lot. Similarly, since the headstock is moving a lot, the mass of the head matters. Usually this so-called 'neck mode' pitch is too low to work well with the main air mode. however, if the neck is light and stiff, and the headstock light, it can happen. I even made one short-scale classical where the 'neck mode' was too high! When the 'neck mode' and 'air mode' pitches match the usual air resonant peak in the output spectrum is spread out into a broader peak with two humps and a valley in between. The frequency response is more even in the bass range, and more powerful. The tone can be 'gutsy' and 'rich'. Using a light wood, like cedro, helps. Deep V necks are stiffer than shallow ones. 12-fret necks have a higher pitch, all else equal, since they are shorter. The weight of the machines can be critical; even swapping out metal tuner buttons for wood can do it. A tapered neck that is deeper at the body end helps. This is not something I've learned to control reliably, darn it, but it's nice when you get it. |
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| Author: | npalen [ Mon Mar 19, 2007 1:38 pm ] |
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It's interesting to hear the body try to "play" when working on the neck. Sanding for example. Nelson |
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| Author: | SimonF [ Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:34 pm ] |
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I thought I would share my experience -- although, it is quite limited as I've only built one non-mahagony neck guitar. I have built a number of Port Orford Cedar topped guitars and it is a very unique soundboard. I definitely recommend giving it a try at least once. Anyway, I built a Port Orford Cedar with Cocobolo back/sides and a Wenge neck. The guy was a bass player and really wanted a heavy neck. The result was, in my opinion, the worst sounding guitar I've built. Obviously, it was better than my first few builds but definitely did not measure up to my standard. It almost feels like the guitar is muted in some regard, although this is not really true. A better description would be of notes that "bloom" - however, this effect is so dramatic that the guitar feels like it takes a second to react. I'm not sure if that makes any sense. However, the sustain in the mid to bass response of this guitar was pretty fantastic. Most of my guitars will sustain loudly for about 10 to 12 seconds and then begin to drop off. So with a fair amount of plucking force - maybe 15 seconds of sustain with some guitars having more and some less. Well this particular guitar sustained loudly for about 24 seconds and then began to drop off in volume. This is quite a neat effect when you have the bass strings vibrating because they will just continue to ring while you play other strings. So the neck woods do have an effect. But I think it would take me several guitars to get the tone right. I would strongly recommend that if you do build with a heavy neck that you build a guitar that has a strong "attack". Maybe a spruce/mahogany guitar would be a contender. There is definitely possiblity there - but I certainly didn't nail it the first go around. And I'm guessing it might take you all a few attempts as well. Hope this helps. Peace Out, Simon |
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| Author: | Telfer [ Mon Mar 19, 2007 6:39 pm ] |
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[QUOTE=SimonF] Anyway, I built a Port Orford Cedar with Cocobolo back/sides and a Wenge neck. The guy was a bass player and really wanted a heavy neck. The result was, in my opinion, the worst sounding guitar I've built. A better description would be of notes that "bloom" - however, this effect is so dramatic that the guitar feels like it takes a second to react. [/QUOTE] Thats a good point about heavy necks and their 'blooming tone'. That much sustain can feel over-powering on a guitar, esp when playing chords. I'll bet the Wenge did a number on your tools too. |
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